4th Edition Rants and Raves ( Please Join! )

[Choas]

So!!!!

4th Edition has hit the scenes for over a month now. I myself have been running an 8 player game IRL and have looked over the books semi-extensively.

Anyone have any complaints or praises as far as 3.5 versus 4.0 go?

Now, I am totally biased as a magic user since the beginning of DND. So when I looked at the PH I was grumbling at the fact that our mighty mountain of options had disintegrated to basic cookie cutter options. Not much versatitility in how our maneuvers can be used ( in or out of combat).

Also! NO DRUIDS!!!! BARDSS??? ZOMG!

Of course I know they will release books with these classes in them, so all I will have to do is wait.

However, I have much praise for 4.0 when it comes to all the melee classes ( aka ranger,warlord,fighter) go. Man, they needed that big time.

If anything I think that more out of combat utility powers are needed for classes. Either that or make skills a bit more useful rules wise with their utility!

OH! And crafting has been demolished. No more craft skills! WTF! I want my bear trap crafting warrior who wields a chain and has armor made of bear traps! C'mon! I am missing out here!

Lol....anyway,....madness and hillbilly nature :mad: aside, what does the host of Barrok think?

[Niko_Kaze]

It looks and feels like an MMO on paper to me. Given some more time I think I can get around that, and while I haven't played yet, it seems like it should be quick to get started and run smoothly and at a good pace, that's something past incarnations of D&D had trouble with sometimes, they could get bogged down (sometimes just becuase of the sheer number of options available). I'm personally still at the wait and see point.

[vithgard777]

I was running a 4e 6th level last night. It took a long time for combat, but it was worth it. Every one had their role to play. The basic layout was this: we had a blank battle map and used different size boxes to represent buildings of various heights. I used the legion devil's 6th level encounter direct from the mm (using two mm's so I wouldn't have to flip so much). The battle lasted 1 1/2 hours, but during that time they were jumping up stories, taking out the bad guys and jumping down to smash down on the ones on the ground. All in all, a spectacular battle.
As for the main story, they were in the city of crossroads, hired as defenders of crossroads, (basically as soldiers), when a massive rift opened in the center. The rift appeared as three massive claw marks. When they finally got close enough, they saw something that gave them serious doubts about going on. It was a broken land with a massive crater with a sleeping terrasque piled high with treasure and an ancient black dragon with umber hulks in packs. The dragon had used the terrasque to store his horde (what safer place?). Around the crater were many other rifts leading to the shadow realm, abyss, etc. The dragon's interferance has caused the terrasque to begin to awake. The rifts are caused by the terrasque's dreaming (unconciously leaking psycic energies which are manifesting as rifts).
Two weeks ago the rift had opened , pouring out all manner of creatures and causing many to flee. the group are the survivors, thus far.

[vithgard777]

PS:
bards have been replaced by the warlords and will not be coming back.

[Choas]

Hmmm. I do agree , DND has gotten bogged down because of sheer options in 3.5 for example. I just love seeing heros given powers that can be adapted to the given situation. But the game itself is well balanced, so its good ! !

Combat does take a while now with second winds and healing surges. Healing Surge is awesome and makes battles so epic. Big boss's using it makes the player's jaws drop as they gain 100+ hp in a single sitting. Nasty.

The whole wait and sit around philosophy!!! Well, I suppose you are right in that respect of being a player/GM/Gamer. Can only watch as Wizards deploys the fate of the game to you.

But I agree with you Kaze, the game is looking more and more like an MMO. Funny you mention that, I actually give my players a quest log to help keep them on track of tasks and events and XP awards based on CR of quests. Hell , even the DMG recommends this.

Overall, the game has gotten streamlined and simpler but all the classes are actually balanced and equally fun to play. I just miss a few elements of the older stuff and crafting. The rituals dont do crafting justice.

[olstar18]

My only problem with 4th edition so far is that there are no games running it on the tower yet. Well that and no ninja.

[Niko_Kaze]

Yeah, I figure they have their game plan for the next year at least, and nothing short of the end of the company will change that plan, so until that time I bide mine knowning there will be something left out I can put in. Personally I don't upgrade until I can do everything I could do in the last edition and then some no matter the base system (WOD, Cyberpunk, Battletech, Shadowrun). I don't expect the company to give me everything up front, but leaving core content (classes, options, etc) out to be upgraded later is a little too much like WoW for me and tends to be a personal turn off. My thought has always been that later publications so be new expansions, not continuations of prior content, when you just continue stuff inevitably rules cross, loops hoops are created, and before long it's just SNAFU. However many ideas in 4.0 do have merit, giving fighters techniques was a great idea, having everyone use the same power base format though was a bad idea. While it could create more paperwork, I think 4.0 would have done better if the different classes had different means of acquiring and using abilities. I really like the way the different alternate power source systems in 3.5 worked and where actually different from each other. TOB and MOI where complete systems that worked well, had similar effects but didn't work or 'feel' the same.

[Choas]

Hmmmm. Agreed again.

The power system should not be as streamlined, I think you nailed my thoughts exactly. Something had troubled me about the system especially about magic users and thats exactly it : power systems should be different and unique to the source using them. I think I was so ecstatic about them making the fighter on the same par as the casters that I ignored the real stagnant hole they were patching into a good system.

That and the skills system is just...blegh...you can use it for a decent amount of ends, but man, the amount of options has decreased I feel. Hopefully this will change in future books. I guess we wait...

[olstar18]

I'm sure it was better when you had quotes like 'which of these 10000 spells will i actualy need in the next half of the campaign' during games but its just to much for me to go and memorize. If you want more spells for the spellcasters then you can always either wait for the next editions of the 'complete' series or make your own. But personaly I think the current setup gives plenty of options so when you have 2 players using the same class you'll know that there will actually be differences in their gameplay.

Out of curiosity though, whats so bad about them taking elements from mmorpgs.

[Choas]

Its not that its necessarily bad, its just that the game has always inspired video games, now it seems like the tides have changed and DND is taking from the video game world for its basis. Nothing bad, just plays like an MMO on paper really.

Some people dont like this because they play DND to get away from video games or people who have the attitude of playing a roleplaying game like a video game. It discourages roleplaying I feel, I guess thats the biggest gripe against the style format or "feel" of 4th.

[Niko_Kaze]

Now if I want to teach and get someone into role playing quickly and relatively painlessly I think I would grab 4.0, however for my personally use I like having all those choices from 3.5, for one I know most of them, and for another I can tweak and grab just what I need and ignore the rest. That's two things I think most people forget: you can leave everything open and not worry about using it all. If someone isn't playing a psionic character but it's open for later use just don't worry about it, until it arrives, even then, you just need to know the rules for the use to make sure it isn't abused, you don't have to know everything about how psionics are used, leave that to the player involved, believe me he'll (or she'll) look it up and scour everything for you. The second thing people tend to forget is that you can change and adapt things without needing more reason than, "it fits my campaign better now" and no one is going to hang you for it. Heck in most the splat books there are sections on each PrC or Class with suggestions on how to adapt the class how you need to! So don't tell me "the designers didn't plan (or type) it that way so we can't do that." What to play a robot in 3.5? Warforged Warlock, just pretend the powers are high tech devices (laser cannon for eldritch blast, special optics for the various sight powers, hover pack for fell flight, etc.).

[Mask]

I disagree that the new feel of the gameplay reduces the RP experience. I have recently moved an existing game over to the new system, and am completely happy with it. Combat is faster, healers get to have more fun, monsters are simpler to run but have more tactical options available to make combat interesting. If your players know their characters and set out to play them, the combat mechanics aren't going to affect that.

From a DM's perspective, I love the new system. It makes my job much, much easier. Do you know how often I used the 3.x system for making encounters, assigning treasure, tracking xp and challenge ratings, or making monsters? Once. The first game I ran. After that I pretty much declared "screw this, I'm gonna wing it!" And I like to think I ran a good game for two years of winging it. Now, however, I have a simple and clear system to use as a guideline for all of those things. Preparing my game is faster and more reliable, and I don't have to fudge the numbers mid-combat because I misjudged how powerful an encounter/monster would be.

My players did complain about the lack of options available to them at first. They said that the system wouldn't support the character they had created. I worked with them, looked at various options, and found that 90% of what they wanted could be met within the rules, using creative reflavoring of abilities and some judicious multi-classing. The cleric of the god of secrets who weilded the uglier cleric spells that no longer exist? Multi-classed warlock, simply calling his warlock powers cleric power and using his holy symbol for them. The Shadowcaster? Now a star-pact warlock and loving it, her spells dealing Shadow instead of Radiant damage. You can do a lot within the rules as long as you don't let the fluff slow you down. Figure out what will work mechanically and then flavor it however you need to to make the character work.

[olstar18]

Glad you like it as much as me. Still a bit disappointed though. I bought the box set and after arriving a month after release despite the preorder I have yet to finda single game for it. I'm starting to worry it will be used as much as my 3.x and modern books.

[Niko_Kaze]

I thought 4th ed didn't support multiclassing. Have I heard wrong?

[olstar18]

It does support multiclassing just not in the same way that 3.x did. On pg 208+209 of the phb there are a series of feats to gain the abilities of the other classes.

[Niko_Kaze]

Then it doesn't support multi-classing.

From what I remember from my read through, you can only take one of those, and even then it counts as your once per day ability. It kind of reminds me of the shadowcaster from ToM.

[olstar18]

As I said before it DOES support multiclassing it just doesn't give you everything like 3.x did. Seriously just because they change it doesn't mean you can't do it anymore.

[Niko_Kaze]

I don't disagree to a point. They've had actual multiclassing since advanced though, what they have here is limited cross training, not multi-classing. As a developer is this going to stop me from playing what I want or home-ruling it? No, but I do recognize that is what is happening too. I can always get what I want out of a system if allowed a little 'wiggle room' by the DM on fluff.

[vithgard777]

I ran a session last week and the 4th edition worked too well. I as able to play twelve dragon npc personalities at once and they were perfect. I love 4.0!!!