Natural 20

[APettit]

Ok so for some things a natural 20 is an automatic success. But how do you know how far to take it. There shouldn't be a 1/20 chance any action a PC can undertake will end in success. Some things are obvious for example a low strength, low swim character in heavy armour can't swim up a fast flowing river but if a character with +5 str mod gets a natural 20 trying to break out of a set of manicals (DC 26) should you let them break out. Just found this problem cropping up alot in my games and was wondering how other DMs solve the problem.

[CountFalchiezVander]

This can be a very frustrating problem for many DMs, and many players cannot agree on a solution. Here is what I find useful:

A natural 20 becomes a sort of fantastic exertion of the character, something that happens so rarely that it becomes feasible and fantastic, and this is a fantasy type game. A fighter shackled to the wall makes a strength check, rolls a natural 20 and, for argument's sake, doesn't officially beat the DC, say he is 1 or 2 short. The DM can simply embellish and say that through a great force of physical prowess, he managed to succeed. (Never let the players know the DC, that way "fudging" in this respect is acceptable, as it doesn't really do harm to anyone)

Now, when it comes to certain important plot devices, things that the characters need to either succeed at or fail, you as DM set the standard. DC 23 for something, and even with a natural 20 he only gets 21? He fails. Remember, this is your adventure as much as theirs, and you spent countless hours designing the specifics. You make the call, and if they don't like it, tell them even heroes get shafted sometimes, it makes for a much more epic finale when they do emerge victorious... That is, if they live....

[Niko_Kaze]

I've always said what a natural 20 gives automatic success on a natural 1 gives automatic failure on then let the players hash out if and what on they want naturals to count for. By the book natural 20 only gives automatic success on attack rolls and save throws, and these are the only things that automatically fail on a natural 1. All other rolls (i.e. Skill checks, Ability checks, Caster Level checks) simply have to pass the DC of the task, so if the character rolls a 1 but still has enough bonuses, ranks, etc. to beat the DC they succeed at the task irregardless of what the roll would have been. Again this is By the Book your milage may vary.

[Mask]

I simply treat a Natural 20 as a 30 and a Natural 1 as a -10. If the player still can't make the save with a 30 added to his modifiers, then it's truly impossible. If he still would succeed with a -10 he cannot fail. I've found that this keeps the fun of the "Automatic" success or failure and rarely makes any difference, but does provide clarity in the extreme cases where it comes into play.

[Scorch]

That's a good rule mask, auto results save arguments and disputes. But then again, I like natural 20 being automatic successes because sometimes heroes sometimes achieve the impossible and it makes for a more epic story...sometimes of course.

I had a barbarian 7 that against all odds almost had victory in a battle that would be tough for 4 PCs. 3 of which were incapacitated in the first few rounds. My barbarian with a lucky 3 natural 20s went on single handedly to take down a NPC hunter/archer, an etin, and brought a large black dragon to its last legs.

Before finally falling unconscious. Without auto successes he would have fallen a lot faster.

[Regnier_Leinhart]

I simply treat a Natural 20 as a 30 and a Natural 1 as a -10. If the player still can't make the save with a 30 added to his modifiers, then it's truly impossible. If he still would succeed with a -10 he cannot fail. I've found that this keeps the fun of the "Automatic" success or failure and rarely makes any difference, but does provide clarity in the extreme cases where it comes into play.

That is literally how me and my friends have always treated it.

[The Sentinel]

For skill checks we came up with a very interesting solutions. When one rolled a natural 20, that player was allowed a bonus d10 roll. If that player was lucky enough to roll another 10 they were allowed to roll the d10 again. This allowed for a bonus on skill checks that were superb. We ran that for a few years and worked well in all instances.

[The Speaker in Dreams]

Hmmm .... now I'd say that the +10/-10 thing and a combo with Sentinel's exploding d10 *might* be a fun way to go.

First off, the 20 = automatic success no matter what is COOL!! It's a heroic game, and the PC's are the heroes. Reality can take a back seat to the dramatics of unpredictability and chance from time to time (it is a die-game afterall, and things can/will happen). I can see the aggravation, though.

1st line of defense is simply not letting anyone know what the DC's are - that way you can up it as much as dramatically necessary to maintain whatever game balance you had in mind.

On to the combo/hybrid of these two really, REALLY cool ideas:

1) A natural "1" = -10 to whatever is happening. IF it still hits, it's good enough.

2) A natural "20" = roll 1d10 and if 10 comes up, roll again. Continue adding and so on. Sure incredibly lucky rolls can end up with a 1st level guy getting some 43 result on the most lucky check rolls EVER!!! BUT (big BUT here) it's a heroic game, and many lucky rolls were involved. By all means that player darn well EARNED the right to blow through whatever plot device you had in place.

3) Of course, getting into that tightly locked room doesn't mean it has to be a good thing. Maybe there's a pet dragon behind it. Sure it was a crazy-high DC for their own protection, but then let them deal with the consequences of that success (both good and bad).

Example: Say the level 2 rogue just starting out in the city cracks a near-legendary safe with his lucky, outrageous string of fortune. He gets the goods and heads out. Maybe this character doesn't even know he's done anything unusual. However ... the thieves guild's head safe-cracker hears what this guy has done. Everyone hears it as a matter of fact, and now the guy's out looking for the PC because he needs to put the little sucker "in his place" within "his" city.

Basically, my view is take the cool event, and use it for all it is worth in terms of dramatics, AND story potential.

[Scorch]

Well said speaker, sure things that would pass in D&D may seem impossible here but afterall the impossible can happen and when it does, even through a series of lucky die rolls, the results make for epic storytelling.

You're going to remember the time you drew upon insane reserves of strength in order to shift the boulder that created the landslide that stopped the "unstoppable army" in its tracks. Think tobey maguire stopping the train in Spiderman 2.

You aren't going to remember that time you tried to hit a foe but lost a shoe in the process.
Though its all about trying and testing different ideas to see what favors your players. Personally I would rather shield all the die rolling and DC's with hefty roleplay, so I don't have to refer to the fumble chart. It just flows better.

[Niko_Kaze]

Actually Scorch, that was how the "Flying Turtle Shoe Throw" martial technique was started. From that humble beginning came a most potent and Deadly technique known to a scant few who use its mysterious means of but-kickery for the betterment of mankind... or at least my own amusement.

[Scorch]

Forgive me, it is my life goal to master that technique now.

Heh not too long ago my tabletop DM didn't realise he was using the massive damage chart for fumbles. A dwarf charged a foe, tripped on a rock and cleaved his own leg off & smashing his powerful shield in the process.
Being used to sweat in the eyes is one thing and having that thrown at us was so surprising because we just accepted it as a fumble :P