Wizards bothering me

[Aeryes]

I always felt wizards have too few spell slots.

Is it really just me?

Even with 18 INT (the normal max) wizards get to shoot out a whackin' 2 spells per day.
If you manage to find a race with an INT bonus, you can bring it up to 3 per day, which, admittedly, sounds somewhat decent.

I'm beginning to think I should start out all the lvl1 wizards as apprentices to a senior wizard (NPC) 'till they're at level 3 or 5.

Giving +1 slot of each castable level to all casting classes seems a bit unfair to the spontaneous ones. Maybe an extra spell known for them

Speak your minds, oh people of the Tower

[Knight of Roses]

I assume from your, rather rambling, post that you are talking of 1st level Wizards.

Well, yes, 1st level Wizards are fragile and only have limited access to the arcane, but if you start as a Specialist Wizard, you will have three 1st level spells a day and in addition you have 0 level spells. The art of playing a low level Wizard is creativity and using what magic items come your way efficiently.

[Aeryes]

I need to start editing my posts 3 times before posting :P

1st level wizards in particular bother me, but even later I feel like they don't have enough slots.

[Barrok]

Its why 1st level wizards start with Scribe Scrolls feat - so in between adventures you can expend valuable xp to hopefully prolong the longevity of your ickle wizard. One of the major points even when in creation of giving them a High INT you have also have to realize that if they have a High DEX too they can sit at the back using their sling neatly... also give them a good CHA score so they can help in social interaction. That way wizards at low levels are more than just poor choices for spell users

[Lapis Lazuli]

:dance: Hey lets bounce round some ideas then for your wizards without mojo...

Like perhaps a spellcraft or concentration feat in place of the spell slots.It would bog down combat with an extra die roll,but hey..that really so bad?

I'm thinking maybe everytime they cast make it a SC or Concent. feat like 10 plus spell level to see if it works.specialty catsers with spell focus could add the feat bonus [2 or whatever] to the roll,ect.damage might just add to this to increase diff. like normal concentration checks,ect.

the downside is this means unlimited casting potential?maybe increase the roll every time its cast a day,or have the caster take damage [i would suggest subdual,rather than lethal] equal to the number he failed the cast roll by [or maybe loose a Constitution temporarily] to reflect the drain on the wizard.He/she will be fine long as they keep making the rolls ect.

[/color]

<span style="font-family:Comic">[color="#3333ff"]I dont know just bouncing round ideas,but smallville/supernaturals starting so I'm off!Feed back would be appreciated!</span>

[Barrok]

With some of the nifty feats out there available to 1st level characters I would go for a human specialist wizard - probably Divination (no one goes for that usually)
#
And make sure that toughness was one of the first feats - the other I may go fr something weird out of the Complete SAcoundrel for a luck based feat which will hopefully save their bacon


Spellcraft or Concentraion rolls in combat feat wiould really start bogging down combat - if people want more casting potential I would go with Warlock or Sorcerer, both of which do not really need a level of play which encourages you have to gauge when to use your powers as a wizard (which is my opinion.. prob not shared by everyone)


By The Way - I do like this thread.

[Lapis Lazuli]

:top: I like the way the old lich thinks.

Yeah I enjoy the factthat the tower itself is set up for exactly this sorta thing,bouncing round ideas [boy my concern wasn't even the roll and the bogging as much as that idea was way abusive...but I jusut kinda put whatever pops into my head right out there.talk about some serious editing just to make that even work,much less playable].

<span style="color:#3333ff"> After some tv and sleep I was thinking if you were after additional spell slots why not make up feats like extra turning.Perhaps Extra Spell Slots,take the feat get "x" amount of spell slots.Then make it lvl enhanced like cleave,trip,ect at higher lvls they have improved versions like great cleave,ect.There could be Improved,Master,or even Epic Bonus spell slots.</span>

And/or you might look back on the 2nd addition for bonus spell slots for superior stats as an example,just apply it to all casters.In 3rd Ed it could be even be altered to bonus spell lvls.For example,a spell-slinger with a 16 Int has a +3 from the stat.This could be 3 bonus spell lvls he could memorize a day like some kinda free [whats that brain enhancing spell called?I'm sure the lich knows},wether it's 3 1rst lvl or 1 first and 2 second or just 1 3rd lvl,ect ect.

I don't really know,just don't let my rambling scare you.I'm not shy 'bout posting out an idea,even a bad one [ believe me,just ask the regulars round the tower.it's true] because it's just an idea to bounce.even the bad one could give you a good idea!That's the bounce!

Anyway I hope this is of some help to you!

<span style="color:#3333ff"> LL aka "Vibro",Buckler of the Swash or Super smooth hero!</span>

[lithuse]

two words, Reserve feats.... Yummy yummy reserve feats.

They basically allow you to use the stored magical potential of memorized spells as spell like abilities at a few lwevels lower without using up a spell slot. IE is you have a fire spell memorized you can shoot a fireball that is 5 fr radius, and does xd6 where x is the highest level fire spell you currently have memorized. You can do this once per round as a standard action.

[The Speaker in Dreams]

I really like the idea of a semi-unlimited casting potential. I also like the idea of taking Subdual damage as failure (brilliant!!!) problems, or even maybe success?

So ... how about a few ideas?

1) Unlimited Casting - yup! but the catch is pretty hefty. Base DC 15 Concentration check to get it going ANY time you want to cast. +1/spell level. This makes Combat Casting nearly requisite for anyone really getting into the thick of it in combat. If you fail, you take 2 points of subdual damage + 1/spell level that you attempted to cast. If it succeeds, the spell goes off like normal. 1 more roll, but it does allow a lot more potential for casters to ... well, cast. under this system spells/level become irrelevant, so a Sorceror should have some sort of compensation ... maybe a level bonus to concentration checks or something? +1/level to make the concentration checks? Ability to take 10 on concentration checks? Only for sorceror's, though. Every other class should be just fine - it's the sorceror's that get impacted heavily by this.

2) Safety-Reserve Casting - basically, the slots/day become the "reserve" of safe spells the mage can cast/day. Mages can still cast beyond that, but it's not safe, and incredibly draining. Concentration check of 20 base + 2/spell level cast for anything beyond the "reserve" pool allotment. If it is successful, the spell goes off like normal, and the caster takes spell level x2 in subdual damage immediately for taxing his body beyond normal limits. If it is a failure, the caster takes spell level x2 in lethal damage immediately for attempting to play with forces beyond his ability to handle. Spell slots are still relevant here, but casters still have the ability to rely on their "magic" more than resorting to hack and slash combat as if they were warriors or something. It keeps the magic types "magic" and out of that "combat" element that other classes are really all about in the first place.

Umm ... I thought I had another option for this, but I've lost it in putting these down. I'll post it up again if I can think of it. It was probably some sort of marriage of the two.


Edit: Ok, I remembered it. Option #3 as follows:

(No idea what to call it, but it's harsh on magic).

Magic can be cast unlimited ... BIG catch. EVERY spell comes with a GUARANTEED cost to it. The basics (1) NO spells/day at all. (2) Every time you cast a spell, you suffer an amount of subdual damage equal to 1 + spell level. (3) Subdual damage will heal off like normal, but if you get to 1/2 normal HP, in Subdual, you're fatigued - or whatever normally happens w/subdual for simplicity (I don't know every rule and particular off hand).

That's it. Nothing fancy, but casting is STEEP! You can cast even 2nd level stuff as a 1st level character ... BUT you're going to pass out from exertion FAST! So really, the limit is the hp/subdual you can manage at any time for determining you casting potential. You're casting in NOT infinite, because you're casting capacity is particularly draining and ALWAYS demanding.

I kind of like this - it gives a LOT of potential to cast, but if caught in an immediate big fight -type of situation, mages are extremely limited. Occasional spell-casting is no big deal, but the big-encounters can darn near wipe a mage out entirely - JUST from magic use alone. Honestly, given the amount of "save or die" types of spells out there, I am perfectly fine leaving mages with this kind of restriction on their casting. It's not often a warrior, after all, is going to wipe someone out in a single round, but then a mage can literally snuff someone out with a single spell ... not entirely fair, IMO. Anything to curb the wizard is a good thing, but arbitrarily cutting them off w/spells/day is a little ... artificial, IMO. I'd rather see a system that shows a mage getting wiped out as they cast - and reflect it in-game.

[Lapis Lazuli]

:banana: Thanks there Speaker of Dreams.I knew that stuff I was throwing out dere was a bit crazy,probly given Barrok an ulcer...but I knew the saged wise guys here would have all the in the box answers,so I was shooting for way outta the box stuff.I'm sure the others were like,OMG!he is so messed up,wich aint far from true...but I was just bouncing ideas,especially the crazier ones.Even bad ideas help the good ones take shape.

I really wasn't sure if he was asking about how to by the rules or not,so I went with not.

Hmm some these aren't bad,but I don't know if I would break the level limit on what a caster [especially if you home brew a camp. with unlimited casting potentials] can do.Or you get MMORPG thing going where the imballance makes everyone else want to tweak or nerf ...and so on forever.

Also I would shy from every cast always harming you,I mean [looks around to make sure lithuse isn't listening]...they are just wizards.These old guys cant take alot of kicking round before they start coughing up a lung and just keel over dead on ya!Perhaps you're safe spells idea could be just the usual spell slots so a content player would never have to risk going up in a ball of magic death as long as he plays by the Players book [has the training to handle that much power ect,ect]...its the ones that go beyond this that risk burning up.

I do like the spell lvl being relevant to the drain however that's much better than that crazy idea I suggested about taking dmg = to miss on roll..heck wizards 'be blowing up all over the place like goblins in baldurs gates!

I'm also thinking that maybe wizards could stave off the drain entirely as long as they have a sharply dressed laughing rogue to channel their dmg to directly..like a bandito familiar!That way this nameless rogue not only feels your pain and sympathizes with the wizards plight,but you get a few good laughs at his expense too!

[Aeryes]

In retrospect, I just felt whiney when I wrote thig. But the results are awesome :top:

Yes, I do indeed love reserve feats, there was someone likeminded writing that :)

Barrok: I totally forgot that! I don't think I ever used the Scribe Scroll thing, other than trying it out in Temple of Elemental Evil. Well said :)

I like the subdual damage idea ... modification (inspired by GURPS):
1 + Spell Level - Spellcraft/5
So 4hp at first level gives 3 +CON slots, which is very nice.

[lithuse]

I have a slight hang up with concept three. If wizards get there power from draining their bodies instead of their minds, Where do you think they would bulk up on? I mean, instead of getting more and more spells/slots per level like a wizard/sorcerer, where is his/her increased potential amount and increased level of spell progression going to come from? Shouldn't the wizard class be redesigned to reflect the fact that wizards need to bulk up on hp/con? Say eventually build up a Damage reduction to subdual damage or something?
----------------


Oh answered myself :bagjob: \


1 + Spell Level - Spellcraft/5


lvl 2 wizard, with maxed out spellcraft (5), = free 0 level spells
lvl 7 wizard, with maxed out spellcraft (10), = free 0, and 1st level spells
lvl 12 wizard, with maxed out spellcraft (15), = free 0, 1st, and 2nd level spells
lvl 17 wizard, with maxed out spellcraft (20), = free 0, 1st, 2nd, and third level spells
+one slot higher with each five levels. I think it begins to be broken, What do you think? or am I being to pessimistic?

[The Speaker in Dreams]

Ok, I'm not sure who's concept #3 you're talking about, but mine was originally that no matter WHAT, IF you cast, you WILL lose subdual points.

Even if you had some sort of subdual resistance, it would only apply to "normal" subdual damage. There should be, if using that option, NO way to reduce the amount of subdual at all. IF you cast, you WILL run down.

As for redesigning the class ... why? Still d4 for hp (ie: can't cast much for fear of subduing yourself anyway), so that's fine in restriction/overpower area.

Int = still used to determine DC's (ie: it's still about what you know and potency of the spell, etc). So again ... no real change.

If anything Con becomes important for granting more HP, thus more "subdual" that the wizard can soak.

Maybe .... MAYBE a meta-magic feat can be developed to say ... knock of 1 subdual point from anything being cast? Say allow 0 level spells to be cast "free" or "infinitely", but even some level 1 spells w/infinite casting can be pretty potent (if you would allow some sort of stacking meta-magic feat).

That other system of increasing "free" spell levels as you go ... that can get out of hand FAST!!! :wizard:

[Barrok]

In another system I have played the caster always has to make a roll when casting a spell - which is modified by armour, situatrion, fatigue etc - if the roll goes awry you roll on the spell fumble table and you could be dazed and lose the spell - through to internalizing the spell and dying.. now thats something I would love to see in D&D.. but its more mechanics to write and would slow the game down...

[Lapis Lazuli]

Yeah,I too enjoy a good story driven game over mechanics.Too much crap can drag out a game and suddenly you got pallidium...and noone ever finished a pallidium adventure...

<span style="color:#3333ff"> What if the drain isn't hpts then?Lithuse is a magic man and probly has an insight on the matter.So what if the drains like a casting stat drain?So the more you fail,the lower the spell level you become limited to casting.Once the casters stat drops below 11 they simply are too taxxed to cast anymore.Recovery time could be like 1 pt per "x" amount of rest.This still leaves the potential for unlimited casts,the spells just might be restricted to lowest lvls if your drained too much.</span>

Then you have to figure out what the drain will be like 1 pt per spell lvl or a specific dice [d4 or whatever.but if the drain is too high like 2d6 it might kill the charater so i would go with smaller drain to permit more freq. failures with min risk to the characters life.after all once he cannot cast he is good as dead anyway if he is in conflict] and recovery.Like a brain poison i guess [im not sure i spelled guess right].

This way they are not necessarily con dependant.It also allows them to take risks without fear of actually doing themselves in.For those more player friendly games.

[RafeIxeian]

I've actually been doing a bit of experimenting with alternate magic systems lately, and while most of them lead to a drastically different style of mage, I've found one system that seems like it should work alright with the Wizards of the Coast idea of a mage (it's still in a concept stage right now, so I haven't applied numbers, but I'll describe it anyway):

In WotC D&D games, the wizard has spell slots that determine how many spells he can cast of each level of power. And then he can cast them pretty much whenever he chooses to until he runs out. The key to this is that it forces preparation, and often you will waste one or two slots on spells you won't actually use. It also connects setup very strongly with execution.

In order to allow wizards a bit more freedom while keeping this idea, and allowing them to last a bit longer you need to give a bit more flexibility in how spells are chosen/prepared. So what you can do is assign the mage a number of points, and each spell two point costs. One of the costs is to have that spell available to you for the day, and the second is for each time you cast it. Then during the spell selection the mage will choose a list of spells for the day, deducting the appropriate amount of points from his daily total, and the rest will be treated as mp for casting. This way, a player can decide to have every spell he knows available, but only have enough points to cast one or two spells, or he can choose a single spell that will leave him with a lot of points for casting. Or he can aim for a balance. He is still forced to prepare and plan ahead, but he isn't forced to be quite as weak.

As an extra modification, you can choose a spell or two or set up some special rules for designating infinite spells (where it will usually cost a LOT more to get set up for the day, but you can cast as much as you want).

It still requires statting and a bit of balancing (especially the extra modification), but it could be effective.

NOTE: If you want you can also choose to make it so that one preparation equals one casting. This complicates set up a bit, but it might allow for a bit more balance too.