Rules for fatigue

[teferi]

I've been trying to work out a system to really take fatigue into account in combat. I mean, I've done martial arts for 8 years, and I know that after 1 minute of sparring with a single opponent you're beat. And that's when you start off fresh. It just doesnt seem realistic that a character can fight endless battles every day and not suffer any penalties for getting tired. However, it's a little tricky to make a rule for this. It should be a Con based check obviously, but other than that....I'm not sure.
Anyone else got any ideas for this?

[Barrok]

In Rolemaster there was a system for accumulating Fatigue Points - the problem being with this optional "law" is that is did over complicate combat thought It brings a certain realism to the game. I shall dig around my old books and see if I can somehow transpose that idea into a d20 format but I will warn you that it will increase combat round resolution.

[Nearly Infinite Productions]

On the fly for d20:



COMBAT STRESS
Each time a character makes an attack action*, give them 1 point of Stress.
*-Firing a missile weapon such as a bow does not acquire Stress. Some other attack actions, such as Ready or Delay, accumulate no Stress.

If the character accumulates another Stress point and their total Stress is higher than their Character Level + Constitution Score, they have to make a DC 12 (or something not too crazy) Constitution check or become fatigued. The +4 granted from the Endurance feat applies to this check. If a character is already fatigued and fails this check, they are exhausted.

All Stress points are removed with an hour's worth of rest or light activity.

Anytime a character benefits from any type of magical healing, such as from a cure spell, all Stress points are removed.

Barbarians in rage do not acquire Stress points.

A character or creature with Fast Healing or Regeneration does not acquire Stress points.

[/b]

It's still hero-fantastic, but incorporates the phenomenon you talked about.
I personally wouldn't use it, but I can see where you're coming from. I might use it in a more reality-based game than D&D, or if there was a lot of gladitorial combat or pit fighting in the campaign, so that pacing opponents becomes a serious factor. If you are going to use it I could probably vomit up a few Stress-related feats too.

Now, that's d20. I'm not sure what system you actually were going to be using (although you did say "Con" so...). To make a system that's universal, you'd have to introduce several all-new factors that may or may not drop properly into your game and that will undoubtedly, as Barrok said, slow down combat resolution.

[teferi]

Yeah, that is more or less along the lines of what I'm working on. I think I will have to make a few more tweaks to it to get it feel right, but thanks.

[colonialbob]

I think that system's fine, except for one thing:


*-Firing a missile weapon such as a bow does not acquire Stress. Some other attack actions, such as Ready or Delay, accumulate no Stress.
[/b]

Firing a bow is very tiring. You have to pull back on the string, usually something like 20 pounds of force is required, then release. Over and over and over. Not to mention the cuts the string gives you if it happens to hit skin as it's being fired. So, I think firing a bow would be on par with firing a sword in terms of fatigue-a crossbow, of course, would eliminate most of those penalties.

[mindgene]

I think the way it is negated is your opponent does not have to make a fatigue check either. You are complicating things and slowing down gameplay even more if you are going to take this into consideration. The other aspect is that adventurers adventure. That is what they do. They walk, run, fight, eat, sleep, walk, run, fight, eat, sleep, etc. I understand your point about fighting for 1 minute and you are beat, but boxers fight 3 minutes per round for 10-12 rounds. Yeah they are beat at the end, and if one guy is really beat then he lowers his hands a little and his lights get turned out for him, but they train for that, and adjust their fighting accordingly. I do see you point but,

Then I have some questions...
-is a dwarf's check harder than an elf's (the dwarf's legs are shorter, probably not as in good as shape as most elves, but their CON's are usually higher, hmmmm)
-a fighter more difficult than a bard
-are you going to take into account for load, weight of character
-how do you plan to account for NPC's and creatures
-if the party is "blessed" does this negate
-the list can go on and on

I really like the idea of this, but I think there are way way way too many additional aspects. You are opening up a can of worms, Pandora's box, if you will. If I was a player I would be upset if I got fatigued, right after I just woke up after a nights REST, I am fully healed, and I stumble upon some combat an hour after walking down the path. I am fully rested and ready to chew some bubble gum and kick ass, and I am all out of bubble gum. Then the dm is going to tell me to roll a fatigue check. No way, I am too amped up to even be remotely fatigued.

The only thing that I might be able to agree with, if you allow for the PC's to make it some type of skill, but I still think it is too difficult and will add too much time causing gameplay to slow down even more.

I really like this topic, I could probably go on and on with pro's and con's in regards to this, but I will wrap this up and finish with this. In your example of one minute, that is 10 rounds. How many combats really go past 10 rounds? I think that would be something else to take a look at.

Just my two cents...

Nick
d20gaming@mindgene.com
nick@mindgene.com

[teferi]

Well the other reason for the rule is a lot of times, adventurers do more than one combat in a single day. Their only limits are when their spells and hit points run out. Unless there's something magical or truly supernatural going on, after say 10 battles each lasting say 5 rounds or so, EVERYONE is tired.
About your comment with dwarves, I truly don't think their legs are in any worse shape than elves. Elves move faster because their legs are longer, but that doesnt make them any stronger. In fact, in terms of brute strength, I would think elven legs generally wouldn't be as strong as dwarves (dwarves weigh more). In terms of your comment about fighters, yeah they are going to end up doing more actions that would get them than tired than bards would, but they also tend to have a higher Con. It's just like with hit points: fighters are going to take more damage, but they are built to do that with a d10 HD and higher Con.
You bring up a valid point about encumbrance though, I have to think about that.....

[Sunfist]

I think that system's fine, except for one thing:

<div class='quotemain'>
*-Firing a missile weapon such as a bow does not acquire Stress. Some other attack actions, such as Ready or Delay, accumulate no Stress.
[/b]

Firing a bow is very tiring. You have to pull back on the string, usually something like 20 pounds of force is required, then release. Over and over and over. Not to mention the cuts the string gives you if it happens to hit skin as it's being fired. So, I think firing a bow would be on par with firing a sword in terms of fatigue-a crossbow, of course, would eliminate most of those penalties.
[/b][/quote]
I'd like to second this. I was a bit of a bow enthusiast when I was younger. Firing a bow can be very tiring, especially with the incredible rate of fire that you can accomplish in D20.

[mindgene]

Question then, if a character has weapons focus, weapon specialization, etc then does she suffer less of a penalty for using her weapon?

I really believe the general idea of this is already covered in the rules. That is why you only get one attack at first level with a +0 or +1 to hit, and you move on up the ladder as you level up. That is the idea of the creators. At least that is what I think. The more you adventure, the more you train, the better off you can handle yourself. Fighting is already a part of the player's lives, that is why a barbarian is "fatigued" after she rages and suffers penalties. Are you going to double the penalty on barb's after they rage, hmmmm?

Again, I love the topic, it has really made me think, as well as get some pretty sweet posts, but I really think you are reaching on this one. I truly believe that this is somewhat already accounted for within the underbelly of the rules (i.e. - pluses on attacks, amount of attacks, movement, etc.)

Another thing that I just thought of, it is not just CON. STR plays a role in how much you can carry, what type of weapon you can wield, and how much damage you do. DEX affects your movement, making you more agile the higher your score.

Well, I am curious to know whatever your final decision may be, so please post once you decide, and anytime you want to come up with another post that causes this much thought, bring it on, I love it.

Nick

[Nearly Infinite Productions]

Glad to be of some help.

[teferi]

Well, this is actually one of many envisioned changes I want to make to the rules system for campaigns I run to get it to match more closely with my concept of reality. I am also intending to make substantial changes to the entire magic system, including adding a fatigue rule for spellcasters. It would be completely different from the one for other classes: for one thing, it would depend on Wis(for their willpower/strength of mind) rather than Constitution, also, it would only be caused by spellcasting and would cause incremental penalties to things like will saves and concentration checks (fatigue of the mind is, if anything, more dangerous than physical fatigue). Thats a little ways off in the future though. For now, I'm just trying to get this rule down, so I can model others off of it to keep the game balanced.

[Sunfist]

Well, this is actually one of many envisioned changes I want to make to the rules system for campaigns I run to get it to match more closely with my concept of reality. I am also intending to make substantial changes to the entire magic system, including adding a fatigue rule for spellcasters. It would be completely different from the one for other classes: for one thing, it would depend on Wis(for their willpower/strength of mind) rather than Constitution, also, it would only be caused by spellcasting and would cause incremental penalties to things like will saves and concentration checks (fatigue of the mind is, if anything, more dangerous than physical fatigue). Thats a little ways off in the future though. For now, I'm just trying to get this rule down, so I can model others off of it to keep the game balanced.
[/b]
I don't think that it's 100% fair for you to use Wisdom. It gives the Wisdom based casters (like Clerics) a clear advantage over their Int and Cha based counterparts. It's a really good idea, though.

[TYPO]

COMBAT STRESS
Each time a character makes an attack action*, give them 1 point of Stress.
*-Firing a missile weapon such as a bow does not acquire Stress. Some other attack actions, such as Ready or Delay, accumulate no Stress.

If the character accumulates another Stress point and their total Stress is higher than their Character Level + Constitution Score, they have to make a DC 12 (or something not too crazy) Constitution check or become fatigued. The +4 granted from the Endurance feat applies to this check. If a character is already fatigued and fails this check, they are exhausted.

All Stress points are removed with an hour's worth of rest or light activity.

Anytime a character benefits from any type of magical healing, such as from a cure spell, all Stress points are removed.

Barbarians in rage do not acquire Stress points.

A character or creature with Fast Healing or Regeneration does not acquire Stress points.[/b]
Why not make it simpler? How about this: at the beginning of every round, make a check. The DC is the number of rounds you've been in combat. Roll 1d20. Add hit dice and Con modifier (and Endurance, if you have it). If you don't make the DC, you take -1 to any subsequent rolls you make. Keep making the check until combat ends, and successive failures are cumulative. The rest of those qualifiers seem okay (Barbarians, healing, etc.). A character who took no actions in the previous round doesn't have to make the check.

That way, it's largely level dependent (i.e. high level characters will tire slower than low) and the first few rounds don't even require checks. Battles that end quickly won't be tiring while ones that go on and on will.

Of course, that's if you actually want to use this kind of thing. I kind of agree with Mindgene; if everyone is tiring at the same rate, this is unnecessary.

[mindgene]

I really like Typo's idea of rolling 1d20 and the way and reason for doing so. I think it would work. You would still have to determine what you, as the GM, consider an action (you could always use the rules on that). If you are going to put something like this into affect into your games, I think this is the fairest way of this discussion yet.

There are still so many things to consider too. Wow, if you don't do anything in one particular round, how does your check get effected. Does it go back to 0, does it get a -1? If you just move, but not do anything else, how does that work?

I know you are considering CON as your basis, and I mentioned in a previous post comparing a dwarf to an elf, my main reason for comparing them was based on the fact that dwarves get a bonus to their con. Elves are usually more agile, and therefore move around at an easier and quicker pace. The other aspect is that dwarves legs are smaller, bodies heavier, and usually carry more weight, but their con is still higher. Seems a little unfair to me. (Plus, that was just one small example - I am sure I could think of several more)

I am very interested to know you final decision on this, and exactly how you intend on putting it into gameplay.

2 more cents for the pot!! :good:

[MindForge]

I was working on my own system that featured stamina points.. Weapons had certain fatigue rates that were reduced by goo strength scores... smaller weapons had lower fatigue rate of course.. to a minimum of one.. stamina recharged very quickly depending on endurnce (endurance and Con were two different stats) but could not recharge in a turn where you used a stamina point. I was working on a very tactical d6 based game. It was really cool. But a weak character could never pick up an large weapon and swing it much. I have been a sword practitioner for a long time and understand how fast you can become fatigued. If you were to swing a sword 10 times in a minute for two minutes it becomes tiring.. not to the point of fatigue though, although it could cause you to become less accurate. It was an interesting system with one major flaw, time consumption. Gaming is about fun not rules in my mine and the system didn't work because it reduced a 10 second round into 15 minutes of combat. That game had 10 second rounds not 6 as in d20.

[Gryphon]

Simply if you look at HP as fatigue...which is what they are after all. They do not not represent the amount of HURT you can take but the amount of combat you can withstand.

Simply you can look at a system based on the proportion of HP remaining. The points of interest in this system is the point where you are at half hit points, then at a 1/4 and finally when you only have under the HP you started the game with.

At the last point you are fatigued. However, it means that a 1st level character who is damaged at all is fatigued when you take damage.

I am always incredibly dubious about adding in rolls or checks, as MF says it slows things down and in the end adds no real value. The DnD combat is highly symbolic and not realistic, this is not a wargame... the more realistic you try and make it the nearer rolemaster you end up....and the truly pants combat becomes.

[MindForge]

This is a quote from the rules:

What Hit Points Represent
Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

Effects of Hit Point Damage
Damage doesn’t slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. At 0 hit points, you’re disabled.

I don't believe that hit points are fatigue. Mainly because the loss of hit points does not slow you down. I think that fatigue is a DM/GM decision. If you believe that players would be fatigued after climbing a cliff, then have them roll Fort saves to see. Make the DC whatever you see fit for the situation. The thing with fatigue though is in order to be rid of it, you need 8 hours sleep. If you wanted to you could allow players to rest for some time to become unfatigued. As long as the players pay attention there is no need to punish them with penalties. But when the players just decide they are going to climb the sheer cliff with all their gear, start the saves vs. Fort to see if they are fatigued. Five penalties to armor and weight, by wieght class (light, medium, heavy), also give penalties for any characters that are wearing armor.

From my 20+ years as a player and GM/DM, I have discovered that less on mechanics and more focus on simplicity is always better. The 3.5 edition is so great because it is simple to use. It allows for focusing on the game and what is going on. Do not focus on all the small details. Use the DM's best friend in a situation where they would have a penalty (-2 to the roll). I actually have three penalties that I use (-2, -4, or -6). An simple, moderate and great penalty. A falling character in plate armor that wants to make a climb check to grab the ledge would recieve a -6 on top of his armor penalty. I believe in cinematic storytelling during combat, I have found that it creates a much more enjoyable environment.

Less on mechanics is better... if you think your characters would be fatigued after doing something... make the characters roll.. get it over and move on.... don't create elaborate rules that acheive the same end and put the game in the mud. I like the fatigue that is already there. I have one fighter that is making fatigue checks all the time. He now has a temporary bonus to fatigue checks because he pushes himself so much all the time. If he stops pushing himself all the time I will remove the bonus.

[Gryphon]

MF I am not going to argue the toss about HP, it is, as we agree, symbolic combat not realistic.

I have always envisaged it as the PC's ability to keep out of the way and parry and so on. Leading me to make the "less hp the more tired you are" connection. Till you are down to 1HD after which it hurts.

But what ever floats your boat. I have seen shed loads of explanations all variations on the theme, so I stick to what fits in my head..the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one...sounds fatigue related to me. But hey ho.

I would advise against fatigue rules for combat...I think we agree there, though our starting point is slightly different.

[MindForge]

I think fatigue and exhaustion are useful tools in the game, but I do agree, they shouldn't be used, or at least used seldomly or as plot tools. I have used fatigue on purpose at select points in a game as a tool but I use fatigue rarely.

[MadMaxamillions]

Honestly, this seems exactly similar to the idea for "extended running". It's really very simple. Any time you take a standard or full action in combat under stress, you would be one round into your fatigue, just like running. Honestly, even a crossbow is encumbering when you have to reload it, so that's how it would be a situation for a character. In order to accomodate characters who are very high level, the stress-related fatigue should be EITHER Con or HD, whichever is higher, so that a 20th level wizard with an 8 con still has the mastery of their power as a 20th level caster. Just like running, you only start making checks after that many rounds... stopping for a round just means you don't add that round, you need to stop for a full minute before fatigue sets in to stop the "countdown". Just like running, the check would be a fortitude/reflex/willpower, appropriate in each round of possible fatigue to whether it's a physical (fighting, climbing, jumping), dextrous (balance/tumble/riding) or mental (spellcasting/psionics/concentration) check DC 10+number of rounds past your max fatigue, and yes, endurance would count for any of those saves. Once you fail this check, you're fatigued as per the rules, taking a -2 to attacks, saves, and ac. One hour of rest clears this. doing something else that would make you fatigued makes you exhausted, as in fighting for another entire set of fatigue rounds while fatigued and failing a second check.

IF you wanted to use this idea of stress-related fatigue, this would be the simplest and clearest way, as there's already a precedent set for it in the extended running idea.

I knew there was a reason I paid 28 grand for a college degree in legal philosophy. :P

[Huoliuhi]

bump up then lurk